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Understanding the Protestant and Catholic Views of the Eucharist (Holy Communion)

Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:50 PM EDT
religion, bible, catholic, beliefs, scripture, protestant
By Charlie Courtois

Grotto at Lourdes

The Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven

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This article is about the Protestant and Catholic views of Holy Communion and the scripture which explains the Church’s view. Here are Bishop Fulton Sheen’s famous words spoken in 1938: ”There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing."

Jesus is very clear in the Bible about the meaning of the Eucharist, the bread of life, in our lives and the meaning of the True Presence. There are many tangential passages about this concept in the Bible, but in the Gospel of John, alone, there are six references to the true meaning of the Real Presence. I will not chronicle all of the words of the verses; but, here are the passages: (John 6: 31, 35, 41, 48, 51, 58). The purpose of this lesson is to teach what Jesus tells about the bread of life and also where he points us to in the Old Testament for lessons about “The Bread of Life” in John 6:31: (Exod 16:15, Num 11:7-9, Neh 9:15, Ps 78:24, Ps 105:40). Being open to new ideas and concepts means one must throw away the old thinking and read about a new concept with a different set of eyes. If you will read John 6 slowly, paying special attention to the passages I have noted here, you will see how clear this teaching is. Yet, in today’s world Catholics and Protestants understand Holy Communion differently; the Catholic’s believe in the True Presence and the Protestants claim Holy Communion is only a symbol.

If the Eucharist is only a symbol than Jesus’ words in John 6:53-59 must be false. At the end of John 6 the disciples turned and deserted Jesus. Jesus then turned to the twelve and asked, “Are you going to leave me too?” He did not say, “I meant what I told you metaphorically; nor did he make a plea to them to disregard what he had said and to return to him.” Were there any doubt about the preciseness of his words, he would have corrected them then. It was only Peter who said, “Lord, to whom would we go? You alone have the words that give eternal life. We believe them and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

    SOME ADDITIONAL BIBLE REFERENCES from: Catholic Doctrine in Scripture, by Gregory Oatis.

  1. Mark 14:22-24- While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them and said, ‘Take it; this is my body.’ Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant which will be shed for many.’”
  2. Luke 24: 13-35 – After Jesus’ resurrection, two disciples were taught scripture while they walked on the seven mile journey to Emmaus, not recognizing Him, until “The breaking of the bread,” and then they recognized who He was; Jesus left their presence leaving them astounded as they rushed back to tell their fellow disciples what had happened.
  3. I Corinthians 5:7-8– “For out paschal lamb, Christ has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast…” Paul is referring to the Mass, the new Passover. The Church teaches that the Mass is both sacrifice and meal.
  4. I Corinthians- 11:26-30 – “…Whoever eats the bread unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” Here Paul reinforces the teaching of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Being adjudged guilty of someone’s “body and blood” is clear reference to murder. How could anyone be guilty of murder for violating a mere symbol? This is also a key passage that affirms the Church’s practice of denying the Eucharist to those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Saint Paul is warning us that to receive the sacrament without an accompanying faith would be an offense of the most serious nature, akin to the murder of the Lord.
  5. Hebrews 13:10-16 – “We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.” The author, Paul, is differentiating between the Christian Community and the Jewish the Jewish people. He is saying that those who continue to worship in the Jewish tradition cannot share in the Eucharistic meal; and this passage affirms the Catholic Church tradition now of refusing Communion to non-Catholics.
  6. Genesis 14:18 – “Melchizedek brought out bread and wine…” This mysterious high priest and king is a clear precursor to Christ. Catholic scripture scholar, Scott Hahn, notes the importance of Melchizedek in his book, The Lamb’s Supper. Melchizedek’s priesthood pre-dates the Levitical priesthood, so it is very ancient. He is indeed the first high priest mentioned in scripture. On another topic, Scott writes that in Psalm 110 that the coming of the Messiah, “Like Melchizedek’s, you are a priest forever.” This verse clearly establishes the Last Supper as a sacrifice. This observation reaffirms the Catholic teaching that the Last Supper was in fact the first Mass.

The Early Fathers reinforced the existing scripture in many of their writings about the Eucharist, and the Real Presence.

In Gregory Otis’s book, Catholic Doctrine in Scripture,it cites that, “Belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist dates back to Apostolic times. It is evidenced in the writings of the earliest church fathers-among them, St. Ignatius of Antioch, who, writing in 110 A.D., states: “Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whenever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus, and one cup in the union of his Blood…” (The Faith of the Early Fathers; Vol. 1, William A. Jurgens, [Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970], page 22). ”Historians agree that Ignatius knew the apostles John and Peter, and was probably ordained by one of them. It is hardly likely that such a great martyr as St. Ignatius would have gone to his death to maintain the purity of the faith by propounding novel and absurd notions. This is not just unlikely, it is unthinkable. And when you add to it the fact that all of the Church leaders at the time must have simultaneously traveled the same strange path to apostasy, the illogic of the “Great Apostasy” theory comes clear. Thus the teaching of the Real Presence had to come from the apostles, who were present at the Last Supper, and who heard Jesus preaching to the multitudes along the shores of the Galilee. The complete unanimity of the early Church Fathers on this teaching allows for no further conclusion. It is also interesting to note that not a single Christian voice was raised to question this teaching for nearly fifteen hundred years.

As I close this lesson of the Eucharist, (Holy Communion), and the Real Presence, I suggest that you read the Gospel of John, chapter VI, to fully comprehend the complete teaching of Jesus on these matters.

There are more than 35 issues on which the Protestants and the Catholics differ; and, I am planning on writing here on 10 of the most frequently contested topics.

Jesus taught that, “Ignorance of scripture was ignorance of Him.” I hope this presentation was helpful to you in understanding what the scripture clearly teaches. If you don’t have a Bible accessible, you can read John Gospel, chapter VI, at this location.

NEXT WEEK: Graven Images and Venerating Relics

    Resources for this article

  1. Holy Bible, Catholic Edition,Copyright © 2001, New Living Translation
  2. Catholic Doctrine in Scripture, by Gregory Oatis, published by Coming Home Resources, Zanesville, Ohio, ISBN 0-9702621-4-0
  3. Teaching of the Church Fathers, by Fr. John R. Willis, S.J., 2002, Ignatius Press, ISBN 0-89870-893-1
  4. Bishop Fulton Sheen, quote: © 1938 by Radio Replies Society, St. Paul, MN
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  • Public Discussion (36)
Charlie Courtois

This is my first attempt to write about some complex religious topics, and your constructive remarks will be appreciated.

For those who do not follow "The Code of Honor" I will delete your commentary.

  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:43 PM EDT
sammy-1646056

I rarely visit newsvine but I will leave a comment. I think you should continue to proclaim the truth.

Also, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Beth-house, lehem-bread. House of bread. Jesus was placed in a feeding trough- the manger as soon as he was born because this is one reason why he came, to nourish us with his body, blood, soul and divinity found in the Holy Eucharist which in turn assists us towards salvation.

It is his glorified and risen body and blood that is found in the Eucharist.

When the bread and body are consecrated, we are present in the upper chamber on the night before he was betrayed. Jesus is God and God is timeless, placeless and spaceless. All consecrations are a participation and are an extension so to speak of this consecration but it is his glorified and risen body and blood that he holds in his hands through his power to be beyond time and place. When Jesus speaks, he means it. This is my body and this is my blood.

One of the reasons Jesus performed the miracles of raising Lazarus and the young girl from the dead is to point to the Eucharist. Lazarus and the young girl were dead. Immediately after raising them from the dead, he instructed that they be fed. On a spiritual level and meaning, after we are raised from the death of our sins in the confessional, we are allowed and should feed on the Eucharist.

There are many more references to the Eucharist in Tradition and Scripture. Many, many more. Some hidden and some obvious.

In Christ, Sammy.

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:42 AM EDT
Charlie Courtois

I rarely visit newsvine but I will leave a comment. I think you should continue to proclaim the truth.

Thank you Sammy for your inspiring comment.

I hope you will find some worthwhile things here.

Charlie

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:50 PM EDT
Reply
EPH289

Thank you for your article Charlie. I felt that it deserved and required a fairly detailed response and you can find that here:

http://eph289.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/27/4211926-protestant-and-catholic-views-of-the-lords-supper

Wishing you all of God's blessings.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:06 PM EDT
Charlie Courtois

Hi EPH,

I find it interesting that you went all around "Robinhood's Barn" to re-discribe Jesus' words in the Bible. I believe there are essentially two views on the Last Supper, Holy Communion, or the Eucharist.

  1. After the priest consecrates the Host in the Mass, making the bread and wine (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ, is known as the Real Presence.
  2. The Protestant faiths treat the bread and the wine as symbols, as you stated. There were no metaphors that were clear in John's Gospel, in Chapter VI. If there are I would challenge you to show them to me.

As I wrote, Jesus' teaching on the Eucharist is one of the clearest teachings in the New Testament. Saint Paul only reinforces the Real Presence in the scriptures I quote above.

Thank for your opinion and your dedication to exploring the truth.

  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
EPH289

John 6:26-40
Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves, and were filled. 27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal." 28 They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 30 They said therefore to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.'" 32 Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 "But I said to you, that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
NASB

This passage from John 6 is clearly metaphorical. Jesus says that if we eat this bread we will never hunger or thirst. Yet clearly, we hunger and thirst. What He is talking about is hungering spiritually. He provides every one of our spiritual needs. Compare the way that Jesus gives this teaching to the following:

John 10:7-10 7 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
NASB

Once again, this is clearly metaphorical. He is not literally the door but rather it is a presentation designed to indicate a spiritual truth.

    #4.1 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:41 AM EDT
    mrsrachelm

    EPH,

    I understand what you are saying and in some areas, yes what is being said is metaphorical such as the door, etc. But not all. I've noticed people generally try to say that because this or that verses, chapter etc are poetic, or metaphorical, or literal etc that all other areas are as well. This is really not the case. All the books of the Bible contain several different forms. We have poetry, genealogy, music lyrics, prophecy, literal instruction, history, parable, and so on.

    The verses where Jesus says:

    35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

    He is not talking about physical hunger but spiritual.

    However, based on the original language in the verses of the last supper Jesus speaks in literal terminology. Where He says "this -is- my blood, this -is- my body" the exact words he uses for the word "is" are a literal not a figurative. That is why, when you read further you see people freaking out think He's talking about cannibalism. They fully recognized the language as literal and it totally freaked them out. They did not, at that time, understand the concept that Jesus, after his resurrection, will be in His spiritual body and fully capable of what we now call transubstantiation.

    When Jesus says that they are to "eat" His body...that word was also a literal phrase and not figurative. It actually meant "devour, chew, consume" and -action- word. Another reason why they initially all freaked out and many left Him at that point.

    When Christ asked the 12 if they too would now leave, Pete said "Where would we go....". This conversation happened because the language Christ used was not symbolic or figurative but very very literal and He lost followers for having said it.

    Be that as it may, I personally believe that regardless of if some take Holy Communion symbolically or The Eucharist, God sees the heart of the person involved more than the outward applications of piety. We, as equally loved children of God and should likely spend less time worrying about our differences then embracing the one thing that we share in common and that is Christ an Him crucified and risen.

    • 2 votes
    #4.2 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:01 AM EDT
    EPH289

    All the books of the Bible contain several different forms. We have poetry, genealogy, music lyrics, prophecy, literal instruction, history, parable, and so on.

    I absolutely agree with this statement.

    However, based on the original language in the verses of the last supper Jesus speaks in literal terminology. Where He says "this -is- my blood, this -is- my body" the exact words he uses for the word "is" are a literal not a figurative

    I understand but that does not mean that it must be taken literally. When Jesus makes His "I AM" statements in John he also uses definitive language and not metaphorical language but that doesn't mean that he is not speaking metaphorically as you acknowledge in in the John 6:35 passage.

    The "is" you reference is the identical Greek word used in such passages as:

    Matt 12:50 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. NKJV

    Clearly we are not His brother, sister or mother in the literal sense and the fact that He uses the "is" as you describe doesn't compel the incorrect understanding.

    That is why, when you read further you see people freaking out think He's talking about cannibalism

    Again, I don't find the people's reactions compelling. One of the most learned of all of the people at the time was a man named Nicodemus. When Christ said you except a man be born again, Nicodemus said he couldn't go back into his mother's womb. Once again he is confused that Jesus is giving a spiritual teaching that he was understanding literally.

    When Jesus says that they are to "eat" His body...that word was also a literal phrase and not figurative. It actually meant "devour, chew, consume" and -action- word. Another reason why they initially all freaked out and many left Him at that point.

    Again I disagree and once again point you to the John 3 interaction with Jesus and Nicodemus.

    When Christ asked the 12 if they too would now leave, Pete said "Where would we go....". This conversation happened because the language Christ used was not symbolic or figurative but very very literal and He lost followers for having said it.

    This reaction and the question of leaving was not during the actual Last Supper, passover discussion. This was during the John 6 timing which is significantly earlier as Jesus discussed the general teaching to the unsaved.

    The teaching in John 6:53 if taken literally as you suggest makes this taking of the Eucharist a requirement of Salvation. Clearly that is contradictory of other biblical teaching where the requirements of spiritual life are: believing faith alone. I refer you to Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10: 9-11 for instance and other Pauline teachings. Even it its immediate context, both before and after Jesus is speaking figuratively (vs. 35/63)

    • 1 vote
    #4.3 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:43 AM EDT
    mrsrachelm

    Having once been Protestant (an evangelical no less, lol) I really -do- understand where you are coming from.

    Basically, as I hope I emphasized at the end of my prior way-too-long comment, lol, is that regardless of if a person is Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, it is the -heart- that God sees. This is why, in my opinion, we are told to "judge not lest we be judged". We cannot see into a person's heart as He can. We may have those types of things that cause "family squabbles" usually based on one of two things: interpretation of Scripture or a Catholic versus Protestant who-is-more-right bias. What we, meaning all Christians, must STOP doing in my opinion is trying to place our buttocks in the seat of judgment over our fellow believers. That seat wasn't made for us and we don't belong there.

    Respectful give and take discourse about our different ways of thinking, praying, worship etc and why we think/do it is great and should be encouraged but only if we are able to maintain that discourse in such a way as to not use it to bully each other, use it to "prove" one is right and the other is wrong and therefor going to hell, etc etc etc.

    I know a ton of things that Protestants believe about Catholics comes from misinformation or misunderstanding and the same is said for Catholics concerning Protestants as well. There are going to be things we just don't agree with each other on and that's okay. We are all individuals and as such are individually answerable to Him when all is said and done. I can only imagine how ticked off and sad He gets over the way we hen peck at each other.

    The thing that is most important..the thing that binds us as brothers and sisters.....is Christ crucified and risen and the gift of salvation given us freely...something which NONE of us have deserved or have earned.

    My motto is: Less bickering...more rejoicing!

    :-)

    • 2 votes
    #4.4 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:32 PM EDT
    Reply
    Wolf Wolfman

    Charlie...Do you receive wine in communion? I'm under the impression that the priest drinks it. If so, why?

    • 1 vote
    Reply#5 - Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:38 PM EDT
    Charlie Courtois

    Yes, Wolf, I have received wine during communion, up until the Bishop decided that our Church should discontinue the practice because of the H1N1 virus. We are a 4-5 thousand person parish and our Pastor is still mulling over whether it is prudent to resume the Precious Blood at this time.

    My wife and I are Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers at our Church and this issue will come up at the quarterly Pastoral Council Meeting. The Southern Diocese of Georgia has left it up to the individual parishes whether they want to offer the Precious Blood at Communion or not.

    Prior to Vatican II, that was the practice. Over the last two millenniums it was a tradition (small "t" in the Church); that means it can change. Capital "T" means it is church dogma and it does not change. Like the Holy Trinity for instance. That can never be changed.

    • 2 votes
    #5.1 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:27 PM EDT
    Wolf Wolfman

    Charlie #5.1...Thank you. My curiosity is satisfied.

      #5.2 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:45 PM EDT
      lisaed

      Wolf---my church in my hometown where my mom still goes doesn't offer wine at communion but my own church where I live now does. I always pass on the wine myself.....I just can't get past all those mouths touching the chalice.....even if they do wipe it with a cloth in between each one. I'm a germ freak.

      • 3 votes
      #5.3 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:35 AM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Lisaed,

      The pastoral council in our Church has a majority of members who are similarly affected by the germ syndrome; so we will probably be abstaining for a while. Father has decided to let them have their way...Uuuummm...

      • 1 vote
      #5.4 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:20 PM EDT
      Reply
      3kyw4law

      Charlie, as good as this article is you didn't explain anything, IMO. You didn't explain what the differences was between Catholic and Protestant views on the Eucharist. Using early church farthers is great for supporting views but we (the readers) need to know what that view is first.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#6 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:27 AM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Hi Kay,

      "Yet, in today’s world Catholics and Protestants understand Holy Communion differently; the Catholic’s believe in the True Presence and the Protestants claim Holy Communion is only a symbol." The scripture says it all in my view."

      Thank you for the question.

      My way of explaining it cannot do the explaining any better than Jesus did in John's Gospel, Chapter VI. We Catholics believe the priest is Jesus and the priest consecrates the bread and the wine through (transubstantiation) everyday at Mass. The Mass is the way we remember Christ at the Last Supper, and follow His commands in the Gospel of John in chapter VI, in our everyday lives.

      Many faithful Catholics go to Mass everyday, and if they are in a state of grace, they will receive the wonderful gift of our Lord in His flesh and blood through the Eucharist. For the Protestants, they decided to interpret the six times Christ said in the Bible, "This is my body, this is my blood," as a metaphor, making Holy Communion just a symbol. That happened 1500 years after Christ's time as I concluded this piece with those details.

      The priest, the Mass, and the Eucharist are Christ's gift to us on earth; prior to His death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, the Last Supper is how Jesus instructed the world to remember Him while we are on earth, and that He will return at the end of time.

      BTW, we take 9 months to teach people about the Christian Faith, now known as Catholicism before they enter the Church in full communion. So, make meager effort is is only the first step. I hope that explains a bit more for you.

      Using early church farthers is great for supporting views but we (the readers) need to know what that view is first.

      I did not write but one of the early Father's quotes; there are writings of the Popes since Peter's time, and many, many Saints who wrote extensively about the gifts of the Eucharist.

      • 2 votes
      #6.1 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:43 AM EDT
      3kyw4law

      The priest, the Mass, and the Eucharist are Christ's gift to us on earth; prior to His death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, the Last Supper is how Jesus instructed the world to remember Him while we are on earth, and that He will return at the end of time.

      I can understand how Eucharist/Communion is a remembrance of Jesus (after that is how he instructed us to remember him) but not how the priest or Mass is?

      • 1 vote
      #6.2 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:31 PM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Hi Kay,

      I am going to try to explain this in two parts, the Mass and Holy Orders (the priesthood):

      1. For two thousand years, dating back to the times of the apostles, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been the central act of Christian worship. It is the celebration of the New Passover, complete with the unblemished Lamb whose Blood was shed and whose Flesh is to be consumed for the salvation of mankind.
      2. ORDINATION AND PRIESTHOOD - Priests do not come between Jesus and us. They are in Jesus. The priestly function actually dates back through the New Testament, to the earliest Old Testament times, with Melchizedek who offered sacrifice on behalf of Abraham. As St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote around 250 A.D.: "If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is Himself the High Priest of God the Father; and if He offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of Himself---then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ." (The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol I, William M. Jurgens, [Collegeville, Minn. Liturgical Press, 1970] pp. 232-33.)

      The best way for you to begin to comprehend this teaching is to go to a Mass with a Catholic or visit by yourself and you will witness what the church has done for the last two thousand years; it is just same now.

      Peace,

      Kay

      • 2 votes
      #6.3 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:54 PM EDT
      3kyw4law

      Mass being the worship service - correct?

      They are in Jesus

      As are all who have accepted Jesus as their saviour.

      As for what was done 2,000 years ago and what is done now being the same - I seriously doubt it due to how human nature is.

      Thanks for the additional information.

      • 1 vote
      #6.4 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:37 PM EDT
      EPH289

      They are in Jesus

      As are all who have accepted Jesus as their saviour.

      Exactly, I am reminded of the Lord's great priestly prayer in John 17.

      John 17:20-23
      "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. 22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.NASB

      This is the part of the prayer where He is praying for all believers.

      • 1 vote
      #6.5 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:53 AM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      (#6.4)

      Hi Kay,

      Mass being the worship service - correct?

      Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

      The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the same in every Catholic Church in the whole world every day. We have two types of Masses, one a high Mass, and the other is a low Mass. There are others for Death, Ritual Masses, and special celebrations, but those are the two main ones. Yes, the Mass is a Worship Service, but not in the Protestant tradition.

      The first Mass was "The Last Supper." There are several main parts to the Mass; every Mass contains the following elements:

      • The Liturgy of the Word
      • The profession of Faith
      • The Universal Prayers
      • The liturgy of the Eucharist
      • Eucharistic prayers
      • Rite of Communion
      • Rite of Closing

      Those are the essential elements, Kay. Prayer, Sacred Music, and Holy Communion are all wrapped around the elements I listed.


      • 2 votes
      #6.6 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:54 AM EDT
      3kyw4law

      Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass?

      No

      • 1 vote
      #6.7 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:18 PM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Kay,

      If you are ever coming through Macon, let me know, and I would like to invite you to St Joseph's here. The church was built by the Jesuits in 1878. It is one of the most beautiful in all of the country.

      Charlie

      • 2 votes
      #6.8 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:25 PM EDT
      3kyw4law

      I'll keep that in mind if I ever take a southern trip again.

      • 1 vote
      #6.9 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:34 PM EDT
      Reply
      lisaed

      Charlie--nice job tackling yes complex issue....would be nice if some of our Protestant friends might share some of their insights re: Eucharist here as well.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#7 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:42 AM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Hi Lisaed,

      Well, I have been helping on the R.C.I.A. team for the last three years, and the new inquirer's to the faith seem to find the greatest challenge the Eucharist. Then all of the Church's so called idols are usually what comes second. Apostolic succession is close to idols in confusion and denial.

      As you know we try to teach the truth from scripture, not personal interpretations. My tools are getting well sharpened in the weekly discussions about the Protestant ideas and the Church.

      Former pastors and lawyers make it even more challenging.

      I would welcome any open discussion about our faith.

      Thank you for stopping!

      • 2 votes
      #7.1 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
      lisaed

      the new inquirer's to the faith seem to find the greatest challenge the Eucharist. Then all of the Church's so called idols are usually what comes second. Apostolic succession is close to idols in confusion and denial.

      Charlie--yes, I've recently been involved in some heated markedly anti-Catholic debates with Christians from other denominations.....in that limited personal experience I've been attacked more on matters of the Blessed Mother, alleged idoltry, and apostolistic succession more so than on the Eucharist. None of it pretty. As I've said on other threads lately I feel like some protestants are rewaging the reformation.

      • 3 votes
      #7.2 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:04 PM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      As I've said on other threads lately I feel like some protestants are rewaging the reformation.

      The older I get, Lisaed, the more I learn that teaching is as much "listening" as it is trying to explain it. There still is a lot to be done by all of us for Christ. Thanks for your presence.

      I thought I would tackle "The Blessed Mother" third. Since I have been absent from the Vine for so long, I am having to get reacquainted all over again.

      • 3 votes
      #7.3 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:35 PM EDT
      lisaed

      Charlie--there is much to teach about our faith....I've learned since just this past Holy Week so many false perceptions about our church among non-Catholics. I applaud your efforts to inform and to listen.

      • 3 votes
      #7.4 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:24 PM EDT
      EPH289

      Charlie--nice job tackling yes complex issue....would be nice if some of our Protestant friends might share some of their insights re: Eucharist here as well.

      lisaed: my detailed response here:

      http://eph289.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/27/4211926-protestant-and-catholic-views-of-the-lords-supper

      • 1 vote
      #7.5 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:54 AM EDT
      Reply
      Tedd Riggs

      nice article and very well written, thank you !

      • 3 votes
      Reply#8 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      Thank you, Tedd.

      Often, even when the words are as plain as the nose on your face, people look for other meanings.

      Thank you for stopping.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#9 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:15 PM EDT
      Tedd Riggs

      So true Charles !

      • 3 votes
      Reply#10 - Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:26 PM EDT
      mrsrachelm

      Charlie -

      May I say congrats on a great article and discussion. I look forward to any and all you may have in the future. I think a calm, respectful discourse on these things is not easy in today's atmosphere so I admire your "stuff" for tackling it head on.

      I've extended a friend request.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#11 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:09 AM EDT
      caltha-palustris

      Charlie,

      Although, my faith has ebbed and flowed...mostly ebbed...and...as a recalcitrant Catholic...especially most recently...I wanted to share with you my impression of Eucharistic Adoration.

      Some of the most powerful spiritual experiences in my life have taken place during Eucharistic Adoration, on Holy Thursday, hours after the celebration of Mass and the Catholic traditions of the Last Supper.

      And although Luke has always been my favorite Gospel - thanks for drawing explanation through other biblical, Gospel, references.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#12 - Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:51 PM EDT
      Charlie Courtois

      HI Caltha,

      This Easter Vigil was my third year back as a Catholic in full communion with the Church. I have facilitated R.C.I.A. for all three years. I spend at least one hour a week at adoration+++. If I didn't live 26 miles from the Church, I would go more often.

      My wife and I are the Cursillo leaders for our church, and I am the Chairman of the Central Georgia Kairos team. I also translate the talks for the Latinos in prison. Kairos is an ecumenical ministry, so I come in contact with all of the mainstream faiths and some that are not quite so mainstream.

      I appreciate your sharing your feelings on the Eucharist. I am always reminded of how difficult it is to stand up for the faith, amid the secularized society that we live in 24/7. Many forget that just after John the Baptist baptized Jesus, that the Devil followed Jesus up into the mountains as He was in solitude praying, and he offered Jesus all of those various dominions.

      I mention this because, I find it strange that Jesus did not get haughty with him, and make some denigrating retort. He simply demurred his attacks and went on praying to His Father in Heaven. We Catholics have the sacraments as weapons, and therefore more will be expected of us.

      Doing R.C.I.A. makes me keep focused on teaching the faith to others; and to live in this secularized society requires plenty of focus, prayer, and dedication to not stray along with the many secularized protestant religions that are excusing: abortion, life, euthanasia, gay marriage, gay priests, as just secular humanism. Once the other faiths go down that path, they pull down everybody else with them.

      Blessings to you for keeping the faith,

      Charlie

      • 2 votes
      #12.1 - Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:37 PM EDT
      Reply
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